A Song of Symbol and Myth

The central hypothesis of the mythical astronomy theory is that many of the ancient legends of Westeros and the rest of the “Planetos” are actually telling us about a world-shaping global cataclysm – the Long Night – through the use of symbolism and metaphor. This is consistent with real-world mythology, which is quite often based on observation of the heavens and the cycles and characteristics of nature.

But it’s not just the ancient legends of A Song of Ice and Fire that tell the story of the Long Night and the War for the Dawn – George has cleverly paralleled the ancient myths with all of the most important and vivid scenes in the main story. Jon and Daenerys may perform deeds which parallel those of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa, but that’s only the beginning – Robert and Renly Baratheon are modern versions of Garth the Green, and more than a few characters show parallels to the Night’s King and Queen, just to name a few examples. The bread and butter of the Mythical Astronomy podcast is comparing the various legends and myths to the characters in the main story and their symbolism, and by doing so, we can discover many exciting scenes which contain metaphorical references to the Long Night events.

George R. R. Martin chooses his descriptive language with the utmost intention, and the reoccurring turns of phrase that we find throughout the books create a tapestry of symbolism which is remarkably consistent and highly meaningful. For me, it all started coming together when I noticed that the moon cracks in both the Azor Ahai story and the Qarthine “origin of dragons” story…

For a more thorough discussion of George’s use of symbol, metaphor, and esoterism in ASOIAF, click the ‘methodology’ tab above.  Otherwise, just dive on in to the first essay, or you can listen to the podcast version wherever podcasts are found, or you can watch on YouTube (the YouTube versions are embedded at the top of the page of each essay). To be notified when a new essay and podcast are released, please follow the blog here on WordPress or subscribe to Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire on iTunes. The podcast RSS feed can be found here.

NEW! White Walkers of the Weirwoods

I’ve mentioned this theory in passing many many times, and now it gets a proper (dare I say ‘definitive’) write-up; this is my best presentation of the evidence that the white walkers come from the weirwoods than I can make. Bonus cameo by the green men 🙂

Garth the Green Man

Who are the green men? Why should anyone care (meaning what do they have to do with the main story)? What does this have to do with the origins of the greenseers and the weirwoods? What secrets does the Isle of Faces hold? Get ready to have you mind blown by the clever folkloric connections between Garth, the weirwoods, and the greenseers. This is some of George’s finest world-building and re-purposing of real world myth anywhere in the series.

The Doom Was an Abolition

In “The Doom was an Inside Job,” I proposed that Aenar Targaryen worked with the Faceless Men to cause the Doom of Valyria, that fiery cataclysm which brought the five thousand year-old Valyrian Empire to a sudden and violent end. The question now is why? Why did Aenar help to cause the destruction of his own nation, the effective genocide of his own people? I think I have the answer…

Shamanic Thunder Horse (Weirwood Compendium 9)

Astral Projection! Weirwoods! Dunk and Egg! Sleipnir and Yggdrasil! It’s all here in Weirwood Compendium 9!

The Others
White Walkers of the Weirwoods
Dawn is the Original Ice: the Last Hero
Dawn is the Original Ice: the Pale Sword
Symbolism of the Others: the Kingsguard
Origin of the Others: Night’s Queen
Night’s King Azor Ahai
A New Night’s King?
Euron, King of the Apocalypse
Night’s King Crowseye
Born to Burn the Others
Lord Snow
Promised to the Others

Great Empire of the Dawn
Dragonlords of Ancient Asshai
Origins of the Dothraki

King Bran
Greenseer Kings of Ancient Westeros
Return of the Summer King
The God-on-Earth

End of Ice and Fire
Burn Them All
The Sword in the Tree
The Cold God’s Eye
The Battle of Winterfell

Bloodstone Compendium
Astronomy Explains the Legends of I&F
The Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai
Waves of Night & Moon Blood
The Mountain vs. the Viper & the Hammer of the Waters
Tyrion Targaryen
Lucifer means Lightbringer

Sacred Order of Green Zombies A
The Last Hero & the King of Corn
King of Winter, Lord of Death
The Long Night’s Watch

Moons of Ice and Fire
Shadow Heart Mother
Dawn of the Others
Visenya Draconis
The Long Night Was His to Rule
R+L=J, A Recipe for Ice Dragons

The Blood of the Other
Prelude to a Chill
A Baelful Bard & a Promised Prince
The Stark that Brings the Dawn
Eldric Shadowchaser
Prose Eddard
Ice Moon Apocalypse

Weirwood Compendium A
The Grey King & the Sea Dragon
A Burning Brandon
Garth of the Gallows
In a Grove of Ash

Weirwood Goddess
Venus of the Woods
It’s an Arya Thing
The Cat Woman Nissa Nissa

Weirwood Compendium B
To Ride the Green Dragon
The Devil and the Deep Green Sea
Daenerys the Sea Dreamer
A Silver Seahorse
Shamanic Thunder Horse
The Stallion Who Mounts The World

Signs and Portals
Veil of Frozen Tears
Sansa Locked in Ice

Sacred Order of Green Zombies B
The Zodiac Children of Garth the Green
The Great Old Ones
The Horned Lords
Cold Gods and Old Bones

We Should Start Back
AGOT Prologue

LmL on Facebook

Now in PODCAST form!

Click to open in iTunes

• Tolkienic Song of I&F
• Echoes of I&F
• Plowman’s Keep
• Blue Winter Roses
• Pawn to Player
• Weirwood Leviathan
• Culture Wars of I&F

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304 thoughts on “A Song of Symbol and Myth

  1. TLDR; the Qartheen fashion of leaving a breast (the left one) bare, is in memory/cultural reverence for Nissa Nissa and the forging of lightbringer. Probably someone has seen this before, and likely it’s no biggie, but fun anyway IMO.

    Relevant quotes:
    “A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. ‘Nissa Nissa,’ he said to her, for that was her name, ‘bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.’ She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

    The Qartheen lined the streets and watched from delicate balconies that looked too frail to support their weight. They were tall pale folk in linen and samite and tiger fur, every one a lord or lady to her eyes. The women wore gowns that left one breast bare, while the men favored beaded silk skirts. Dany felt shabby and barbaric as she rode past them in her lionskin robe with black Drogon on one shoulder. Her Dothraki called the Qartheen “Milk Men” for their paleness, and Khal Drogo had dreamed of the day when he might sack the great cities of the east. She glanced at her bloodriders, their dark almond-shaped eyes giving no hint of their thoughts. Is it only the plunder they see? she wondered. How savage we must seem to these Qartheen.
    Rhaegal hissed and dug sharp black claws into her bare shoulder as Dany stretched out a hand for the wine. Wincing, she shifted him to her other shoulder, where he could claw her gown instead of her skin. She was garbed after the Qartheen fashion. Xaro had warned her that the Enthroned would never listen to a Dothraki, so she had taken care to go before them in flowing green samite with one breast bared, silvered sandals on her feet, with a belt of black-and-white pearls about her waist. For all the help they offered, I could have gone naked. Perhaps I should have. She drank deep.
    “Long have we awaited you,” said a woman beside him, clad in rose and silver. The breast she had left bare in the Qartheen fashion was as perfect as a breast could be.
    Through the indigo murk, she could make out the wizened features of the Undying One to her right, an old old man, wrinkled and hairless. His flesh was a ripe violet-blue, his lips and nails bluer still, so dark they were almost black. Even the whites of his eyes were blue. They stared unseeing at the ancient woman on the opposite side of the table, whose gown of pale silk had rotted on her body. One withered breast was left bare in the Qartheen manner, to show a pointed blue nipple hard as leather.
    It’s the left, where the heart is:

    “She had chosen a Qartheen gown today. The deep violet silk brought out the purple of her eyes. The cut of it bared her left breast. While the Good Masters of Astapor conferred among themselves in low voices, Dany sipped tart persimmon wine from a tall silver flute. She could not quite make out all that they were saying, but she could hear the greed.”

    “In his honor Daenerys had donned a Qartheen gown, a sheer confection of violet samite cut so as to leave her left breast bare. Her silver-gold hair brushed lightly over her shoulder, falling almost to her nipple. Half the men in the hall had stolen glances at her, but not Xaro. It was the same in Qarth. She could not sway the merchant prince that way. Sway him I must, however. He had come from Qarth upon the galleas Silken Cloud with thirteen galleys sailing attendance, his fleet an answered prayer. Meereen’s trade had dwindled away to nothing since she had ended slavery, but Xaro had the power to restore it.”

    “Starlight and seafoam, Dany thought, a wisp of silk that leaves my left breast bare for Daario’s delight. Oh, and flowers for my hair. When first they met, the captain brought her flowers every day, all the way from Yunkai to Meereen. “Bring the grey linen gown with the pearls on the bodice. Oh, and my white lion’s pelt.” She always felt safer wrapped in Drogo’s lionskin.”


  2. Yo LML just a quick thing that i haven’t heard you or anyone really touch on. When we first see Ice in the show Theon brings it in a dead beast (a wolf? i’m not sure) and Ned draws it from the beast, i think we also see that in the depiction of Tywin later on reforging the sword.

    This is perhaps a hint at the Ice is light bringer idea but i haven’t heard comment on this specific instance.

    another point from this same scene you might be interested in regarding the last B2WW discussion about MSAT discussing poisoned trees: ” guardsmen dragged the ragged man to the ironwood stump in the center of the square. They forced his head down onto the hard black wood.” so here you have a black stump and iron in combination with wood, this may simply be the earliest reference to MSAT tree sword ideas to later be explored.

    Nothing revolutionary but worth a mention.


  3. do you think that there is a specific action that George could do (like make the comet orbit the moon once) that would reverse or change the direction the prophecies and predictions are going, in a way that fits in with all the prophecies.


  4. Hi LML, Happy Holidays! I think I’ve got something that you’ll find useful. It’s a bit of a long comment but I assure you this is a nice adage to something you’ve already covered and it’s something you can discuss in any upcoming Fire & Blood talks you may have.

    Remember the section where you discussed Rhaenys’-Meraxes’ role as the archetypal fire-moon maiden being struck down by the Dornishman’s (Solar King’s) bolt (commet, lightning of the gods) and then crashing into the Hellholt? Well you caught the swordplay in the sex-and-swordplay motif going on there, but now using F&B we can add the sex part too.

    However, I’m going to have to have do a fair bit of prior explanation and deduction before hand, so bear with me.

    This is all concerning the mysterious letter Aegon recived in open court from Dorne’s emissary, Princess Deria Martel, in the ‘Aegonfort’, after the last unsuccessful war in Dorne.

    “It was then that Pricess Deria presented the king with a sealed letter from her father. “For your eyes only, Your Grace.”
    King Aegon read Prince Nymor’s words in open court, stone-faced and silent, whilst seated on the Iron Throne. When he rose afterword, men said, his hand was dripping blood. He burned the letter and never spoke of it again, but that night he mounted Balerion and flew off across the waters of Blackwater Bay, to Dragnonstone upon it’s smoking mountain. When he returned the next morning, Aegon Targaryen agreed to the terms proposed by Nymor. Soon thereafter he signed a treaty of eternal peace with Dorne. To this day, no one can say with with certainty what might have been in Deria’s letter. Some claim it was a simple plea from one father to another, heartfelt words that touched King Ageon’s heart. Others insist it was a list of all those lords noble knights who had lost their lives during the war. Certain septons even went so far to suggest that the missive was ensorceled, that it had been written by the Yellow Toad before her death, using a vial of Queen Rhaenys’s own blood for ink, so that the king would be hopeless to resit its malign magic.
    Grand Maester Clegg, who came to King’s Landing many years later, concluded that Dorne no longer had the strength to fight. Driven by desperation, Clegg suggested, Prince Nymor might have threatened that, that should his threat be refused, he would engage the Faceless Men of Braavos to kill King Aegon’s son and heir, Queen Rhaenys’s boy, Aneys, then but six years old. It may be so…. but no man will ever truly know.” – Martin G.R.R., Fire & Blood, Harper Voyager, Harper Collins UK edition 2018, pp 38-39

    (Yes, I just typed all that out)

    So why the mystery surrounding the letter? What’s Aegon’s reason for secrecy? What’s Dorne’s? What’s Martin’s?

    I think, enigmatically yet precisely, that the reason for the secrecy of the content of the letter was that the content of the letter was the reason for secrecy. It was essential to all involved that whatever was written in that letter remained a secret. That is the only plausible explanation of why the contents of the letter remained a secret for so long. None of the other reasons offered needed to be kept secret. Aegon could have told those reasons to anyone at any time and it wouldn’t have changed anything. It is unlikely then that he kept it a secret, and disposed of the evidence so quickly and determinedly, if secrecy was not essential to him. It is also unlikely that the Dornish kept the contents a secret if secrecy wasn’t also essential to them. It is highlighted that the Dornish have done what no other of Aegon’s foes have managed to do before, yet not a boastful word passes to a page. Thus, if both Aegon and the Dornish are keeping the secret that means that the secret is mutually beneficial to both parties. Since Dorne got what it wanted by simply showing Aegon, and only Aegon, knowledge of this secret, then it can be deduced that the knowledge of this secret and the need to preserve it, blackmail, is what forced Aegon not to attack.

    There is only one thing that could be used to blackmail Aegon Targaryen and force him not to attack, the knowledge that Queen Rhaenys had survived at Hellholt, had been unfaithful, and had produced a child with a Dornishman. I think this letter was written by Rhaenys herself explaining the situation.

    So why must this be kept a secret by both parties and why can it be used to blackmail Aegon you ask? Because Rhaenys has committed high treason and if this secret got out then Aegon would be forced to seek justice against his sister, her child, and Dorne, which he must do in order not to appear weak, and Rhaenys may either be executed by the Dornish if he attacks, or she may be forced to stand against him as an enemy in order to protect her child, forming a new Targaryen dynasty that would be a threat to the fragile hegemony of the newly conquered seven kingdoms. Either way, it ends with Rhaenys dying, hating him, which is something I don’t think Aegon, who clearly loved Rhaenys best, could bear. Thus it is essential for both Aegon and Dorne to keep this secret. As long as Aegon keeps it his sister lives. As long as the Dornish keep it Aegon has no need to attack Dorne in order to restore his honour and social standing and that of his house.

    This information totally immobilised Aegon. If he had accused the Dornishman for raping and imprisoning his sister they may simply have killed Rhaenys, denied the crime, disposed of the evidence, and left Aegon attempting to convince his war weary banner-men that these fantastical events were true and not an elaborate invention justifying a renewed call to arms. Even worse Rhaenys may deny it was rape and leave him a cuckold for all the realm to see. Subsequently weakening his position amongst his subjects, sceptical of the strength of their new king and the stability of the Targaryen Dynasty; with suspicions that the other half of the power couple, and half of the Dynasty’s Draconic might, also be lacking in fidelity to the king. It may not be assured he could even summon the respect or the arms needed to seek his retribution on Rheanys and Dorne.

    If perhaps you’re wondering why Dorne continued to keep this secret long after all those involved were dead then consider the idea that it may have been such a closely guarded secret, for Dorne’s security against any chance of Aegon’s wrath, that everyone who knew died without passing on the information to anyone else. Rhaenys, Prince Nymore and Princess Deria, Aegon, a few chosen guards and serving men, the child… no that many people. The Martells may have gone to great and even ruthless lengths to make sure this information did not further jeopardise any relations they may latter have with the Targaryens.

    Whether or not it was by Rheanys hand and be her own free voltion that the letter was written may be debatable. Personally, I think, going by his reaction of immense pain and the fact he kept the secret, that Rheanys was a willing lover and has written this letter beseeching him to spare her and her child out of love. This usually phlegmatic man was clearly very hurt by the contents of this letter. This isn’t simple blackmail. It’s his wife, his sister, his love breaking his heart and castrating his ability to react, yet relying on his love for her to keep her safe and not make an enemy of her.

    Further evidence for Rhaenys infidelity can be seen in both the fantastical and realistic conclusions that people speculated over concerning the contents of the letter.

    “heartfelt words that touched King Ageon’s heart.” – words from a wife, a sister to a husband who loves her and she had loved and a brother she still loves?

    “a list of all those lords noble knights who had lost their lives during the war.” – to say “are you sure your men will follow you, brother, if vengeance is what you seek?”

    “using a vial of Queen Rhaenys’s own blood for ink, so that the king would be hopeless to resit its malign magic” – written by his blood, his love Rhaennys for the sake of her blood?

    As you and many others have noticed, Martin will often hide grains of truth in the chaff of lies, and divide a whole truth amongst many falsities.

    Now, it’s finally time to employ some mythical astronomy to this revelation . But I’m confident you’ve already spotted it. As you observed a long time ago Rhaenys and Maraxes as fire moon symbols are being hurled out of the sky by a solar king’s bolt only to crash into the Hellholt, yet where before this could only be viewed as an act of violence, we can now see the impregnation of a fire-moon maiden, by the solar king, in (roughly) the same event.

    So… ta da.

    All that for such a little observation. But I can’t apologise too profusely for dragging you through all that. I wanted to really elaborate on the theory and thus assure you that you were on solid ground, which I hope I have, before you decide to allocate this to your symposium of mythical astronomy references.

    Oh, but there is one more thing. If the bolt of the “Dornishman” was responsible for dragging our fire-moon maiden to earth, and impregnating her with the seed of the sun… wouldn’t that make him a ‘Dark Solar King’? Like the Bloodstone Emperor perhaps? And who is the figurehead of these Dornishmen at the time of Rhaenys fall? Why, none other than Princess Meria Martell, The Yellow Toad of Dorne. And wasn’t the Bloodstone Emperor remembered as having worshipped a black stone that fell from the sky, eerily similar to the “greasy black stone” found on the Isle of Toads, where a great sculpture of a Toad made form this material was erected and presumably worshipped. Just something to mull over.

    Anyway, thanks for reading. Have a great holiday and a happy new year!


    • Well, that’s quite an interesting theory. I will say that it does agree with the symbolism – some kind of birthing symbolism would indeed “belong” with such a Gods Eye / Fire Moon death scene. There isnt always birthing symbolism – some of the dragon battles don’t have it, for example – but often there is. So.

      Your theory also makes logical sense – I can see such a situation forcing Aegon to relent and just sort of leave Dorne alone. My big question and the big obstacle here is that a lost Targaryen heir, a child of Rhaenys herself no less, is out there floating around. That’s not the sort of thing you do unless you plan to use that bloodline. So where is it? The only dragonlord looks we see in Dorne belong to House Dayne, but we already have a good reason for their looks – the Great Empire of the Dawn. This is really the big obstacle for this theory. Let me know what you think.


      • Well thank you for the speedy reply, LML, and thank you for raising these concerns. However, I’m going to do my best to put them to rest here and now.

        Firstly, it must be said that there is no guarantee that Rhaenys’s child would possess the classic ‘Dragonlord’ looks if the father was a Dornishman. Prince Baelor “Breakspear” Targaryen, who was son to Princess Mariah Nymeros Martell and Prince Daeron Targaryen, did not posses the Valyrian looks of his father but rather the swarthiness of his mother. Mariah Martell’s brother, Prince Maron Nymeros Martell, also wed a Targaryen, Princess Daenerys Targaryen, daughter of Aegon IV Targaryen, and had several children by her, and although poor Quentyn may have insisted on having ‘the blood of the dragon’ in his heritage it clearly wasn’t in his looks. So it is far from a given that the child could be easily identified as a Targaryen by looks alone. Even if it did possess the suitable appearance there is no reason why anyone in ‘the world’ should be convinced that child is in fact a true Targaryen and a potential heir, and not just some bastard from the house of Dayne or a slave child from Lys… save for one reason, that is. Rhaneys admitting to it herself. Without her testimony no one of any importance would have ever believed that she had survived and given birth to a Dornishman’s child. When she died there was no possible way to confirm the claim of the child’s lineage. Thus searching for evidence of the child on looks alone, or even searching and speculating on its identity at all, might be useless.

        Which brings me to my second point. Now, when you say, “That’s not the sort of thing you do unless you plan to use that bloodline”, I’m not sure whether you’re referring to Martin’s plans or those of the Dornish. However, I think if Martin had any plans for this rogue blood line then it would probably be through the Dornish that those plans would grow to fruition, so I’ll respond to your statement in regards to the Dornish first.

        As previously stated, unless Rhaenys was willing to testify that the child was hers there would be no way to prove the veracity of the claim. I think it goes without saying just how sceptical people would be. I also think that this was part of the agreement that she had with Aegon, “leave us in peace and my child and I will not rise against you.” So without her support… what could the Dornish do? They would be as immobilised as Aegon was, which pretty much sums up the nature of the peace itself. Neither side got any clear advantage over the other, they just all of sudden decided to stop fighting without any immediate fear that the other side would resume hostilities. I find it very strange that whilst Aegon was cowed enough to cease all fighting the Dornish didn’t even attempt to use this same weapon to elicit anything but peace from him, especially anything that would have given them a tactical advantage had hostilities arisen again. Both sides seemed confident in the peace yet there seems to be no obvious reason why they should be. It seems to me that the edge of this weapon cut both ways and that the Dornish were not the true masters of it. Sorry, a minor tangent but I wished to emphasise my point that it doesn’t seem likely that the Dornish could use the bloodline for their own ends unless Rhaenys supported them, which I don’t think she would do, as she was probably still loyal to her brother and king (just not as a wife).

        Thus if the Dornish couldn’t use the bloodline, how could Martin? What possible path must have this child, and its descendants, taken to reach a point where they are not only assured of their identity, and able to gather support on the basis of it, but also to rally a force making them a ‘legitimate’ claimant to the crown? And even if their path was not so straight forward, and was more singularly heroic in nature, where could Martin have hidden this story? It doesn’t seem plausible that Martin could have set up the narrative arc of a royal pretender from so far back in the ages of Westeros whilst shielding it from the eyes of his readers for so long.

        And why should he? Why does Martin have to have a use for this bloodline other than as pure symbolism and as a convenient explanation? You see, I’m entirely sceptical of the idea that the birth of this one child must ultimately transpire to some epic quest of recognition in order to justify its part in the story. I’m sceptical because when I stand back from this singular event and see it in the wider context of all the intrigues in ASOIAF, not only is it nothing more than a drop in the ocean but it would be going against the current to conform to such a narrative. The only candidate we’ve come across that undeniably fits that heroic story, of the hidden king emerging, triumphant, once more, is Jon (and I think we both agree it will come with a twist). The other characters, who have been clearly marked by the author as candidates or have fallen under the gaze of speculative readers, have been parodies of said narrative; Aegon being an example of the false pretender, and Daenerys’s mentioned similarities to Ahsara Dayne, and thus the subsequent suspicions on her identity, serving only to obfuscate the truth, whilst revealing a deeper truth on the identity of the Daynes. I think we’ve both seen many theories that have riddled out, to the nth degree, every drop of Targaryen blood and presumed that the old story of heroes will be marched out for this or that person, simply owning to a remote ancestor, and we’ve seen them come to naught. Think of all the Targaryen bastards that have been sired through the ages, and how many of them that became nothing. So I do not think that Martin would feel any compulsion to forge this bloodline into something of importance. I think it clear that he intentionally subverts and parodies this fantasy trope move than he conforms to it. I also don’t think he would feel any compulsion to put such a narrative to use when he has so much to work with. He’s already spinning so many plates I don’t think he feels like he would need to throw in a couple more for the sake of it. And as to feeling compelled to tying up loose ends… I think he thoroughly enjoys creating an artfully composed mystery that has no end.

        I’d love to hear any further points you can raise. It’s really good to hone the argument.

        Happy New Year!


        • Well you’re still left with the same problems I raised. I dont think it makes sense that he would imagine such an elaborate scenario to create a separate line of Targs and then just do nothing with them. I dont think that makes sense. And there’s not enough evidence to support it anyway – you’ve basically come up with a sensible explanation for the mystery, but you’re still filling in gaps with speculation. So what I am saying is that of your theory is true, the ramifications are actually large – other hidden Targ bloodline – too large to just disappear and go nowhere, imo. There’s always a point or a payoff, and this just kind of goes nowhere…

          “It turns out Rhaenys actually has a secret marriage and child!”

          “So what happened to them?”

          “Well, nothing.”

          See what I mean? Not very satisfying. Don’t think Martin would do that.


          • Well I think I’ve answered that as best I can….

            That nothing could be done with the bloodline anyway, as it’s a bastard line that couldn’t be verified, which would give Martin the perfect explanation as to why he didn’t do anything with it.

            That there are numerous instances of Targaryens, like Aegon IV, siring many bastards who amounted to nothing in the story.

            That Martin wouldn’t feel compelled to flesh out this story as he had so many similar, and much more pivotal, narratives to work with.

            That the tragically mundane nature of such an event purposefully juxtaposes the expected heroic narrative, which is something Martin has played with before.

            A lack of satisfaction is subjective. I personally find the idea, that Martin would create such a meaninglessly tragic end to Rhaenys’s offshoot line, quite refreshing. But as I said, it’s entirely subjective. Regardless, I think it falls well within what Martin would be willing to do, especially for the sake of such important symbolism. Yet of course, this isn’t evidence for either side.

            Anyway, I think we’ve reached a difference of opinion here, which of course is more than fine and I’m glad to hear your side. I would once again like to thank you for taking the time to challenge my assertion, it’s really helped me a lot.

            Hope to see what else you’ve got in store for us in the future, LML. Take care and keep up the great work.


  5. I think the Long Night was caused by the Blood Stone emperor, but he only caused some sort of fire calamity in the Far East. I think that there was a spill-over effect that caused zombies, dragons, whatever to spill over into Westeros. When that started happening, the Children of the Forest used there magic to create the Others to combat the evil that was coming from the East. That’s why Leaf says that they were protecting themselves from Men. Not the First Men, but Men from the East. This would be consistent with the Pact being upheld. Maybe that’s why they are called “Others”, because they are the “other” zombies that were made during the war for the dawn and I think that is consistent with your idea that the last hero was a zombie (Ice Zombie). Maybe the Blood Stone Emperor created fire zombies and the children created ice zombies to combat them. The Others don’t seem to attack some characters (Sam, Craster, Wildlings above the wall, etc). Maybe they thought their purpose was complete, but they realized something and now they are out to complete an eons old mission with a zero tolerance policy for resistance. That is consistent with the idea of balance, ice versus fire. Maybe the last hero was the only hero left from the fight against the blood stone emperor, then he was like “yo, ice zombies, we’re good. We won, go back to the grave” and when they didn’t, he went in search of the children to help him hit the off button. Idk, just a thought.


  6. What’s up party people – really fascinating stuff here that I am just starting to scratch the surface of. I’m hoping somebody can help me track down downloadable podcast versions of the Bloodstone Compendium episodes 3, 4, and 5. On iTunes the oldest available episode of the podcast is 7/11/2016: Bloodstone Compendium 6. I have the first two episodes, I think, which I must have downloaded some time ago. Obviously, there are streamable versions of the podcast on this website (or I could just read the essays) but I am hoping to find versions of the audio that I can get into my podcast app so I can listen to them during my commute. Any help would be very appreciated. Thanks to you LML, and to the whole community, for some really superb and fascinating content.


  7. I just posted this question on Deep Geek’s Livestream (March, 2018), in which you were a guest; which I loved, btw. Here is the question maybe you can answer or maybe you already have:
    Are the Hot-Springs North of the Wall, where Jon and Ygritte had sex, physically connected to the Hot-Springs under Winterfell? Even if not physically connected, are they connected with the broken Horn found with the Dragon? Stone? Will Jon have to revisit the Hot-Springs where he was with Ygritte? I haven’t heard any mention of “Hot-Springs” in the caves where Bran becomes the 3-Eyed Raven, but it is warm in that cavernous area under the Westwood tree


  8. Hi LML, I’ve been enjoying listening to your thoughts and chats on ASong of Ice and Fire for some time now, and was curious of your thoughts on how much is left after character revival. In particular, Lady Stone Heart and how she might react if she meets with Arya or Stansa on their travels, or even Jon Snow, or if she’s only a Vengance Zombie. Thank you for your time, and keep up the great, compelling work!


  9. Hey David, it was great to meet you at the BWB party, I’m stoked that we got to be inducted into the Free Company of the Green Leaf! I wanted to ask you about the Dragon Locked in Ice. I just finished “The Blood of the Other” series and you’ve convinced me that the Dragon Locked in Ice is a major symbol throughout the books, and I was wondering your thoughts on what all that symbolism is leading up to?

    Personally, I think Jon’s body being put in an ice cell doesn’t quite cut it. It fits the motif, certainly, but I don’t see it as being important enough to be the end game. You brought up Dante’s final circle of Hell, and I think that’s the key. Dante’s Dragon Locked in Ice, Lucifer, is the ultimate antagonist, and I think that’s going to transfer over. I think George is using all this symbolism to refer to what’s at the Heart of Winter, what Mel refers to as the Great Other.

    I doubt the readers will ever be explicitly told what’s there, but I like to speculate. I imagine it’s not a literal dragon, but rather a metaphorical dragon, like a Targaryen. However, this would have to be a Proto-Targaryen, and you know what that means: A dragonlord from the Great Empire of the Dawn. I think this is the Amethyst Empress. The first Long Night is thought to have been caused by the Blood Betrayal, so the Bloodstone Emperor’s rivalry with the Amethyst Empress coincided with the magical unbalancing of ice & fire. The Bloodstone Emperor can be seen as the champion of fire magic, so it would make sense if the Amethyst Empress were the champion of ice magic. What about her being killed? We have evidence to believe the ‘mother’ of the Others was undead: The woman who took Night’s King’s seed and soul was a “corpse queen.”

    Then there’s the Wall conundrum. It was built with ice magic, but supposedly to protect against ice creatures? That makes no sense. I see the Wall as being a continuation of the Hammers of the Waters; a barrier to protect older races from the onslaught of men. If the “Great Other” is an ice-magic dragonlord, then perhaps she flew to their last bastion in the far North to make a trade. The Amethyst Empress built the Wall for the Children, and they taught her how to puppet-master other beings.

    We saw in the House of the Undying that mortal beings can prolong their lives through magic, perhaps indefinitely. They did, however, try to eat Dany, so I think that’s where the Northern babies have gone. When they’ve been sacrificed down the well, they’ve been nourishing the Great Other so she may continue to live forever. Alysanne disrupted that though, and that’s why they’re attacking now.

    Oh wow, that’s a lot of crackpot rambling. Anyway, nice to meet you, keep on rocking in the mythical astronomy world.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hey Keegan! Wow, ok, everything is coming together. I somehow forgot we had met at the BWB party, and then you sent me that fine art. Now I am seeing your comment here, with your picture and name together and I’m like “aaahhhhh okay.” 🙂 Thanks again for the sick weirwood artwork.
      As to your icy tinfoil, it’s not that wild, actually, meaning it’s not really crackpot. We’ve been talking a lot about what if any connection exists between Nissa NIssa (who may well be the Amethyst Empress) and the Night’s Queen, and there may be one. I’ve also written about how it seems to me like the Others ice magic is simply fire magic flipped to ice, and that NQ somehow took Azor Ahai’s dragon seed and turned it cold to make Others with burning cold star eyes, although the exact details are up for speculation obviously. As for the Heart of Winter, yes, that is indeed the ultimate dragon locked in ice, along with the ice moon itself. So the fulfilling of the awakening of the ice dragon will come in three forms, most importantly: the awakening of the ice moon, the heart of winter, and of dead Jon. Look for all of that in TWOW, imo.
      I would love to see some sort of entity controlling the Others, whether that’s Night’s King or Queen. I suspect that person would only exist inside the wwnet, as I’ve been picking up clues in that direction for a while now.
      Anyway cool theory, and like I said, it’s fairly well within the range of possibilities I consider reasonable. TWOW will tell us a ton about these matters. 🙂


  10. watsup lml ive got a couple questions.
    if ive got the correct understanding of your theory, the most recent long night was caused by the destruction of the fire moon via a splinter of a comet (echoed by Ice being split), causing a nuclear winter. we then figure that the next long night will come about by the (partial?) destruction of the ice moon.
    so first, do you think that azor ahai actually caused that celestial catastrophe or do you think it was just something that happened and was later attributed to him? i can go either way on this, on the one hand its a bit too “high fantasy” but on the other i feel like it is better thematically to have the others arise as a result of hubris/greed than just some random natural disaster. and if azor ahai or someone did do it do you have any idea on the mechanics involved? if ur theory is right, does the horn of joramun blow up the moon?
    second, i was watching your collab with history of westeros talking about the dawn empire, and it seems heavily implied that another long night and invasion of others happened before the empire got started, with the five forts being built at some point during or after to defend against it; how do you square that information with the moon meteor theory? idk if we can just assume there was also a 3rd moon, but “well you just dont need meteors for a long night to happen” doesnt sound super satisfying either, but i guess that could be the case if the one in the present story is going to just happen on its own, because unless the ACoK comet comes back or some horn magic or crazy euron bloodmagic or both happens i dont really know how this moon will break.
    third, rereading the series after listening to your stuff i noticed at the end of cerseis walk of shame, ungregor’s “shadow fell across them both, blotting out the sun”, which is pretty clear moon death blocking the sun symbology, but then as he lifts cersei up she is compared to a baby. this struck me as something to do with nissa nissa’s child, or undead nissa nissa as nights king’s corpse bride’s child… im not sure if youve talked about this scene but i wanted to hear your thoughts on it.

    thanks, i love your work and have enjoyed listening about real world mythology and how martin uses it immensely, plus the theorycrafting is always fun.


  11. Hey LML. Two things

    First, can you send me an email to your Paypal please?

    Second, have you seen the 1981 movie Dragonslayer? If you haven’t then just take note of these two facts:

    1.The names Tyrian and Valerian are both used.
    2. The final battle with the dragon takes place at the moment of an eclipse where three red comets streak through the sky.

    The film has always been of great sentimental value to me as it was filmed in and around the valley of Dolwyddelan, which is where my grandmother lived and I spent a great deal of my childhood. It was only after re-watching recently that I spotted these similarities with ASOIAF and your own Mythical Astronomy works.


    • Hey Vurtigone! Your desire to fund mythical astronomy is deeply appreciated, and you can simply type the following in your browser:
      And no, I haven’t seen Dragonslayer, but I surely will based on what you’ve said!! Thanks!


      • Do you mind pounds stirling (£)? Or do you know if I can change it to dollars on paypal or if it does automatically when I pay you from my Paypal,

        Sorry, to be a pest.


        • Scratch this last one. I figured it out. 🙂

          If there are any problems, and there might be (because I’m using my UK card in a foreign country) don’t hesitate to let me know and I’ll fix the problem using a different card and a different paypal.

          Sorry about the delay, by the way.

          P.S. I’m the guy with the Valknut on his Paypal, just in case you were wondering.


  12. Hi there LML. Just saw the news today that the first ordered pilot for the HBO spin offs is going to be something that GRRM would entitle ‘The Long Night’ were he the one naming it. Any thoughts? Seems to me like it could have some implications for a good number of your theories.


  13. Greetings. I admire your work and have a question for you which came to me while watching your “The Cause of the Long Night” YouTube video. I apologize for my non-native English in advance. 😉
    Do you think it’s possible that Dany’s hatching the dragons scene gave us new information regarding the way the moon meteors were originally turned into dragons? We know the Moon wandered too close to the Sun which resulted in it cracking open and out of it a fiery meteor shower fell upon the Earth, but did the dragons actually hatch during those very moments or was some additional magic used by those who found those meteors? Dany originally received eggs that were “turned to stone by time” but is that really true, or is that simply their natural state as they are parts of the Moon which has rock/stones? Yes, the meteors drank the Sun’s fire which is why they have the potential to become fire made flesh, but Dany had to unlock that potential using blood, sacrifice and fire magic to bring dragons out of the stone – which seems logical, as the Moon served as a sacrifice to the Fire of the sky and gave its life so dragons could come out of it.


    • Hey Ida! Thanks for all your comments. I think your idea here is probably too literal; I don’t think there’s an actual direct connection between the dragons and the meteors. The swords and the meteors, sure, but I don’t think the dragon’s eggs are actually meteors. That just seems like a little too high fantasy for ASOIAF as well. Then there is the presence of fused stone structures that seem to date back before the Long Night – the 5 Forts in the far east, and the fused stone fortress at Battle Isle in Oldtown. Those would seem to suggest dragons and sorcerers controlling dragons were things that were happening before the LN.


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  16. Dave (LML), Awesome essays. After reading and researching for about 2 year, and utilizing your essays as the Rosetta Stone, I have uncovered some parallels that I dont think anyone else has. I would love to chat quickly about this. Whats the best way? That is, if your intrigued… I can explain, how dragons are bonded, how Resurrection works, time line discrepancies, living and non living creatures, when the last living thing left the plantos, what squires really are, and the idea of mounting your horse and being carried around, as well as dragon eggs. Cell 586-854-3325


  17. Yo LML, what’s up? I wanted to share some things I’ve been playing with after reading Sons of the Dragon, but it’s become too large to share on Twitter. Basically it’s about if the High Septon tells us anything about the Bloodstone Emperor, and maybe even about Night’s King and Azor Ahai, check it out:

    High Septon = Bloodstone Emperor

    The High Septon is said to wear a crystal crown, an obvious ice symbol which probably makes him look a bit like Night King does in the show. Basically he looks like he rules over all things ice. He also leads the Swords and the Stars, and rules from a place called the Starry Sept. In SotD the Warrior’s Sons are described a lot like stars, with large numbers and reflecting armor, often being described as “shining”. So the High Septon basically leads a Starry Host.

    Starry Septh sounds like a place where they would/could worship a stone that fell from the sky, like a fallen star. Throw in the Others-symbolism of the Warrior’s Sons and you have a High Septon who leads Others from his Church of Starry Wisdom. Another example is Septon Moon who later in SotD preaches as High Septon from Stoney Sept, another place that to me just sounds like a place where they worship a stone (that might have fallen from the sky).

    The Bloodstone Emperor was said to have “cast down the true gods” (WoIaF) and we have seen that the Seven are basically the only major gods that have no obvious power, unlike “true” gods like the Old Gods or R’hllor McFireyface. In AGoT the High Septon is a sinful man who seems to have “forgotten the gods”, like the Bloodstone Emperor.

    The Poor Fellows/Stars are said to fall upon travelers and to have “swarmed” toward King’s Landing, “swarmed “out of alleys, and “swarmed” over towns and villages (SotD). In the end the High Septon is responsible for the Stars, so you’ve got another parallel to the Bloodstone Emperor causing a meteor shower, which must have looked like stars falling upon the land and swarming the sky.

    The High Septon marries Maegor (a dragon) to a Hightower (celestial stone) in the Starry Sept (night sky), like he’s connecting a comet with the moon. Their marriage remains childless, even after a long night (badumtssjj) where he “consummated the marriage a dozen times”. Just like the world bore no fruits during the Long Night that followed the collision of comet and moon. Would’ve been great if she’d given birth to a son on the 13th try, though, but the second consummation (#13, in a way), also leads to nothing.

    Faith Uprising = Long Night

    Taking this one step further, and you come to the conclusion that the Faith Militant uprising thus resembles the Long Night. You’ve got a battle vs ice, vs Other-like Swords and Stars, who are led by an icy Bloodstone Emperor figure and later also by Septon (Ice) Moon.

    When you look at 43 AC, around the time of the potential attack on Oldtown: After a terrifying night full of “song and sin and drink” (SotD), the high septon dies after he “thundered” and “called down the wroth of the gods” during that night. Sounds a lot like the Bloodstone Emperor to me.

    Here are some more far-fetched correlations on this:
    – In 41 AC, at the beginning of the uprising the HS was “the true king of Westeros, in all but name”, like the cold and darkness that ruled the Long Night.
    – Hundreds of Poor Fellows were slain during the uprising, just like the actual stars weren’t seen during the Long Night.

    High Septon = Night’s King

    In Storm Jamie says “The Others can take the septons”, which got me thinking about any parallels between the High Septon and Night´s King. He rules his Other-like Swords from the Starry Sept, with his icy crown in a place that resembles the night sky. So he’s basically Night’s King, for who “the night was his to rule” and who was, in a way, taken by the Others, since he was sacrificing to them and adopted some of their atrocities. He was also taken by his Other-like queen (different meaning, i.e. he fell in love with her).

    Maegor “had to put a dozen septons to death” before he found one willing to marry him to Tyanna (SotD). So you’ve got the thirteenth septon present to marry a pale queen.

    The High Septon’s “reply was so blistering that His Grace went pale” (SotD) that it’s almost like his burning cold had made another pale wight/Other.

    High Septon = Azor Ahai

    Like I stated before, the HS is on more than one occasion said to “thunder” and is said to have called “down the wroth of the gods” in SotD. When he dies, he is “reborn” in the sense that another is chosen in his place. In SotD George even phrases it such that a new High Septon was “raised up in his place”, so make of that what you will. Septon Moon is also said to have been “raised up” as High Septon by the rebel Faith Militant.

    The Septon who makes an end to the terror of the night before the potential attack on Oldtown by disbanding the Faith Militant and anointing Maegor is Septon Pater (“father” in Latin). I’m going to put on some tinfoil here real quick, but what if Azor Ahai’s son (perhaps Night’s King/Bloodstone Emperor) was messing about, caused the Long Night, the Others, etc, but then his father was raised from the dead, came back out of/via the weirwoodnet to stop him?

    While I’m at it, I’ve got some observations about Maegor, apart from the correlations between him and Bloodraven that I tweeted about last week:
    – On his wedding night he takes both Tyanna (pale, ice) and Alys Harroway (sigil looks flamey) to bed, like ice and fire moons. Later he kills both moons, though, the fiery one first. He also burns seven hundred shining warriors sons, “swords” who are aflame like the sun setting fire to a meteor shower.
    – A little comparison between Maegor and Stannis: King Maegor kills seven holy men with Blackfyre, while Stannis burns seven symbols of the gods with actual fire. They both sire nasty twisted babies of malformity, grayscale and shadows. Also, Dragonstone and the Red Keep share a lot of symbolism.



  18. Hey LML! Constant YouTube listener of your Mythical Astronomy Series, I currently up to your Weiwerd Goddess Series. I love all your work! I am currently reading the books for the first time, after starting with the show, I fell in love with ASOIAF and wanted to gain all the knowledge about the story I could. I am currently on the A Clash OF Kings and am getting introduded to PatchFace, I was wondering if you could help me out with PatchFace and his story and who he may have connections with? I feel he is an overlooked character and may be worth analysis on! Thank you for your time.


  19. Hey LmL! I’ve been listening to your lovely podcasts for quite some time now and I’m really enjoying them.
    I recently came across a few interesting chunks of myths about eclipses and was blown away – these real world myths totally line up with the style of all the symbolism you’ve been pointing out so far… GRRM really does know how to make his stuff fit right in. So apparently, there are quite a few stories from different cultures in which eclipses are caused by something or someone swallowing the celestial bodies. Often it’s a snake or a dragon… – no surprise here.
    – The Bakunawa is a dragon in Philippine mythology that is often represented as a gigantic sea serpent. It is believed to be the cause of eclipses.
    – In Egyptian myth, there’s Apep, also a giant water snake. Apep is the enemy of Ra, the sun god, and tries to swallow the sun barque.
    – And then there’s the Hindu myth of Rahu, the severed head of a demigod. Rahu chases the sun and the moon across the heavens and occasionally catches them. But when he swallows either of them, they simply fall out of Rahu’s neck stump and continue their journey – so his victory is only temporary.
    I saw a photo of a painting in a temple representing some aspects of that last myth, and it basically looks like a round celestial diagram with a small circle in the center and a snakelike thing extending from the outer border to the center. Basically, the whole thing looks like a comet striking the sun/moon pair in the center…

    Keep up the great work!


  20. Hi! Longtime listener, first time replier . Love the show.. Anyway, I keep thinking of a spooky poem (William Blake: Intro to Songs of Experience). Inspiration perhaps? What do you think? Heres a bit, but the rest fits well too..

    “Hear the voice of the BARD!
    Who Present, Past, and Future sees
    Who’s ears have heard,
    The Holy Word,
    That walk’d among the ANCIENT TREES”.


  21. Hello lml, I’m writing this over a google translator, so I’m sorry about the errors. I love your work, I enjoy listening to you and agree with your theories. Since when I watched an episode showing how white walkers was made, something struck me. I looked at the scene again and I also got a few ideas that I would like to share with you.
    First: in the scene we see that the landscape is covered with lush greenery, which means that everything happened before the long night.
    Second: Leave said that they have to protect yourself from YOU (and people). I concluded that they were at war with Green men. Green men used their power to use people as their weapon. That’s why children had to create someone who can not be influenced by green magic.Maybe in stories about Garth you have a hint that something like this happened.Hope this will be interesting for you.I have more theories about how things went on, but I would rather talk about it than to write.
    Continue with good work
    Best Regards


  22. Have you looked at the Epic of Gilgamesh as an influence to ASOIAF? Specifically, there is the sha naqba imuru version, which has lots of interesting symbol parallels (ravens, burnt brick, lapis-lazuli, bulls, cataclysmic flood). Gilgamesh is described as a king “surpassing all kings” and a guy who “sought life without death.” The original title, based on the opening words of the epic poem, was “He Who Saw the Deep,” meaning deep wisdom and knowledge. You might have mentioned this in a previous episode, but there’s a lot to chew on in your podcast and I might be forgetting if so! Still, considering the analogy of greenseeing to drowning (‘if you stay too long you won’t come back’), and the Iron Islands both having a likely greenseeing ancient ruler (Grey King) and praying to the Drowned God…well you get it. The Deep Ones aren’t squishers or fish people, the legend seems to be a misinterpretation by generations of people thinking deep could only refer to the distance underneath the seas.

    Liked by 1 person

  23. Deeply enjoyed listening to Quinn and yourself lastsest collaboration, hope it continues. When you talk about the symbiotic relationship between the Coft and Weirwoods , reminds me of the ant and acacia tree. The ants live in and are fed by the tree , and they protect it.
    When you were discussing the “dead things in the water” I felt there was a massive oversight no Great wight shark pun.
    Looking forward to expanding on your lastest theory in the future.


  24. I noticed that the Vale and its landmarks are like both male and female reproductive systems.
    The Mountain Road leads to the Bloody gate.The gate is described as two watchtowers joined by a covered bridge over the road.
    To me this is describing the female reproductive system, the two towers connected over the road symbolizing the ovaries.
    Beyond that is the Vale itself, which is some of the most fertile land in Westeros. This symbolizes the womb.
    At the Gates of the Moon there is a moat. This is where it switches to the male part of the theory.
    Over the moat, the Gates of the Moon is described as a ‘stout castle that stood at the foot of the Giants Lance’. I think GRRM is having a bit of fun here and is describing a fat butt.
    Further on at the base of the mountain the first waycastle is called Stone (can you see where im going here?) The path to stone is covered by forest. Stone is surrounded by a stone wall topped with iron spikes and has two fat round towers. I think Stone should be called ‘Stones’.
    The mountain itself is called the Giants Lance which i dont think needs explaining. At the top of the Giants Lance is the start of a waterfall called Alyssa’s Tears. It’s named for Alyssa Arryn who saw her whole family murdered in front of her and never shed a tear. After her own death, the gods cursed her that she would not know rest until her tears reached the Vale of Arryn, where all those she had loved were buried.
    Alyssa’s Tears, comes down from such a height, that the water turns into mist before it ever reaches the Vale.
    I believe Alyssa’s curse is the reason that House Arryn is plagued by stillbirths miscarriages,infant deaths and mothers dying in the birthing bed. The waters of the Giants Lance(male) never fertilizes the Vale(female) below. There isnt a lot of info on house Arryn but the other Arryns that lived away from the Eyrie seemed to have no problems conceiving children and had quite big families.
    The fact that she never cried at the deaths of her family members leads me to believe she had something to do with the murders and may be a regarded as a kinslayer in the eyes of the gods.
    There is a line in Alayne I AFFC….”I won’t have him here. You send him back down. I never said that he could come. Not here.The Eyrie is imPREGnable, Mother said.”
    in the paperback i have,the ‘preg ‘part of the word is italicized for some reason. It’s the same in Alayne II….”No one can hurt me so long as I stay here. The Eyrie is imPREGnable.”
    I cant find it printed this way in any other chapter.

    Liked by 2 people

  25. Greetings from big D,
    I thoroughly enjoy your green seer series. I read somewhere that George RR Martin named the weirwood trees as a nod to Bob Weir of the Grateful Dead. Just a comment not altogether relevant and a thank you.




  26. Hey Lucifer its Unchained or as I accidentally revealed Ross. My essay series I have been working on for like 6 damn months is almost ready. I finally broke off a piece for a first essay. https://wordpress.com/page/asoiafunchained.wordpress.com/17. It is the story within the story, the beginning. Take a look if you are interested. I am playing with some of your mythical astronomy toys I would like to hear t.hat I am doing it right (and that it is kinda understandable, I have a reputation for not being understandable at times kinda PKJane-like but less kinky). I am not targeting as big an audience as you but everyone wants a few readers.

    I listened your live stream today while I was working, but I had sound issues. I missed most of the first hour. If you spoke about the blue blooded Others I missed it. My essay is mostly about the Morningstar vs the sun. It is the two stage fight I spoke of on the forums. Round one is similar to Loki or Lucifer challenging God or insulting the gods before being sent to the underworld. Round 2 which I mention but save for another day is when Loki and Lucifer come back at Armageddon or Ragnarok. Those are the two Hammer of the Waters events. One is the Morningstar being sent to the Underworld. The other is his return during the end of the world. I found that during the 2nd round that the sun is usually a Kingsguard/Other. That is how I thought the Others were kings. They are the sun king’s remains fighting the black bastards that beat them in round one/two. Anyway, please check out my writing and let me know on Twitter what you think. I think I am on to something, but I am in your area of expertise.

    I look forward to you looking at the ToJ. I think I can kick that scenes ass and I will try in a future essay. Basically Rhaegar dying at the Trident and Viserys dying at the party are Lucifer challenging God and losing being sent to the underworld. The ToJ and the tent fight are based on the bible story I sent you about the woman standing on the moon with the sun behind her that gives birth before Lucifer-as-a-dragon tries to steal said baby. Ned and Jorah are Rhaegar and Viserys after death trying to take the baby and winning. This makes since with what you said about the Daynes and Hightowers being dragon slayers. At the ToJ they play the part of the dragon slaying angels from the bible.

    Liked by 1 person

  27. Hey LmL, first of all thank you for recording all those podcasts in addition to your written essays, they are a real treat! I haven’t all of them yet, but so far I especially enjoyed the “Sacred Order of the Green Zombies” series. Keep up the good work!
    And I wanted to add a small remark (just in case it has not been mentioned by dozens of other people before): you once mentioned the theory that Ghost, having Jon’s soul inside him, might be sacrificed/burned, liberating the “Jon(+Ghost) soul” in the process. If I remember correctly, Ghost is described as being mute so far. Wouldn’t such a sacrifice be a great opportunity for a “cry of anguish and ecstasy”? (“The only sound poor Ghost ever made..” It makes me sad to even think of it.)

    Liked by 3 people

  28. Hey LmL, I was sorry to see you leave the forums, but I understand. It has been dying a slow death for a while.

    I live in the path of totality of today’s eclipse, and I wanted to say it was about 500% more enjoyable due to your blog. The moment right before and right after totality is known as the “diamond ring” due to it looking like a bright gem on the ring which is the sun’s corona. When someone told me that today as I was looking at it, the idea of an eclipse being a marriage of the sun and moon immediately popped into my head. When totality began, I took off my glasses and noticed that Venus had become visible. I would assume that would always happen in eclipses that occur in the middle of the day when the sun is high in the sky. There is your Morningstar creeping on the sun/moon sex like Bran spying on Jaime and Cersei as well as Tyrion coming up on Tywin and Shae. The full eclipse looked like so many familiar symbols. I could see it as white swords pointing outward from sun/moon like the Kingsguard sigil. I could see a lion’s head with a black face and white mane. They really are natural ways to rationalize what we all were looking at. Eclipses are all black and white, and I wondered later if the fair skinned white haired Valyrians wearing black armor are meant to look like one. I am thinking they are. The group I was with made a lot of jokes about the end of the world including one involving a comet. Unless that person follows this site, it just proves that the end of the world and comets are the sort of thing that people’s minds go to when they see something like that.

    I may take you up on that offer to send you something I write for you to read over, but not anytime too soon. I have something that is 20,000 words so far, so it will have to be a series. I am thinking I can rationalize how someone can be both the sun’s sword and a sneaky wife stealer. I believe Ramsay and Euron are showing us a type of magic user that we do not have a real version of in the books, unless Euron is becoming one. Euron is configured like a one-eyed see, but he is not much of a corpse in a tree. He takes advantage of Grey King figures. I think that the person that would correspond to the sun in your moon explosion series of events had a corpse in a tree for a brother he abused to gain his sight who could be thought of metaphorically as a sword. By the way, did you notice on the HBO show what Euron does to the sandsnakes he kills? He impales one on her own spear and hangs the other with her own whip on the prow of a ship just like where he puts Aeron to control the wind. That appears to be a direct reference to Odin unless it is a coincidence. This sun king person was attempting some sort of sexual, magic ritual involving his wife and was using his brother’s power in some way as well. During it his brother betrays him and steals the product/child/Lightbringer following a battle in the wiernet in which he overpowers his brother’s mind inside the host. I’m not trying to start a discussion or anything, I just wanted to throw my idea out there. It will still be a while before I can get it into a form that is understandable and well supported.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Hey ‘Ross,’ better known as the great Unchained! It is super awesome to hear from you. You are on the very short list of reasons I was lingering on the forums as long as I did. I would have gotten around to messaging you had you not found me here, so I am glad you did.
      I’m also glad to hear you caught the totality! I unfortunately could not, but I saw a 80% over or so, and it was pretty awesome even still. I’m glad mythical astronomy has deepened your sense of awe for this kind of thing; I know it has mine. I look for Venus all the time now, and by thinking this way, we are able to get a little closer to the headspace of ancient man. Like you were saying, you can really feel it with something like an eclipse. Imagine if you did not have science to tell you what the f— was going on! No wonder this kind of thing would spawn crazy mythology.
      That sucker sure looks like a fiery eye or a fiery pair of horns, huh? And yes, Ravenous Reader would be glad to hear you mentioning the white lion.
      That’s a cool catch about the San Snakes, I didn’t notice it. Could be coincidence, it’s hard to say.
      Did you watch my cave painting videocast with Aziz from History of Westeros? I think you would really like that: https://youtu.be/R2MkpqB21Rs
      As for your idea, there is often a brother brother thing, as you know. But sometimes one of those brothers seems to act like Nissa Nissa, so I have just been thinking that sometimes the sun-kill-moon thing is depicted as male-female, and sometimes as male-male. I will just have to keep your idea in mind and see if something occurs to me. Euron’s potential tree symbolism would come from his kraken symbolism, because if you recall, someone put together that the kraken tentacles are just inverted tree roots, or like grasping branches. Also, in the Forsaken chapter, there are burning trees in the background. But you could be right that he’s not the tree figure, absolutely. Send me whatever whenever, I’m always here for you my friend. Cheers, don’t be a stranger.


  29. I watched your excellent appearance on History of Westeros and I have since then completely devoured your essays and podcast. You are a treasure.

    After this season began, I decided to re-read a Dance with Dragons and also examine Jon Snow’s relationship with dragons and I found something that really surprised me and that I have not seen discussed much in the fandom. And I am VERY curious about your opinion because it relates to both symbols and astronomy — maybe you have an essay on it that I haven’t found.

    In the books, there are about 10 separate references to an “ice dragon.” Most of these are found in Bran and Jon’s POV chapters and they are references to the constellation which both Bran and Jon use to navigate beyond the wall (Davos references it as well). The ice dragon or its rider is said to have a bright blue eye, which aside from being creepy and reminiscent of white walkers, seems to be reference to a north star of sorts. But then in ADWD Jon (and ONLY Jon) recalls not the just constellation, but twice calls the wind “cold as the breathe of the ice dragon in the tales Old Nan” used to tell and also calls the road beneath the wall “dark and cold as the belly of an ice dragon.” Previously, Jon also described walked beneath the wall as “like walking down the gullet of an ice dragon.” With all this combined, I think Jon actually considers ice dragons more than standard fire type ones. Do you think this is simply a hint that Jon represents the “ice comet” aspect of Lightbringer? Is there more to it? I am really struck by how vivid and sensory Jon’s thoughts of ice dragon are — he imagines that it breathes on him and uh swallows him. I have to imagine that you are just the best possible person to ask : )

    Liked by 1 person

    • Glad you’re liking the podcast! There is just so much beneath the surface of ASOIAF, I try to do my best to dredge it up.

      Ice dragons, yes. I do look at Jon as the ice dragon in the sense of him being a frozen Targaryen, a cold dragon. I’ve also noticed that it’s Jon who seems tied to it (as well as the Wall itself). Now will a real ice dragon appear? I tend to think yes, simply because it’s this totally awesome fantasy thing George came up with and I don’t see how he doesn’t use it. So I for one am hoping to see one.

      I am starting a new series next month called Moons of Ice and Fire and we will be getting more into all things ice, and we’ll talk about ice dragons and Jon and the Wall in more detail.

      Glad to have you as a listener!

      Liked by 1 person

      • I’m really looking forward to this. I think you’ve been holding back on Aegon/Visenya/Rhaenys (and specifically Meraxes being shot down) content! 🙂 I suspect it will have to come up here (?).

        Liked by 1 person

        • Ooh you are too clever, you’ve seen right through me. I kid, but you are absolutely correct. The Aegon/ Visenya / Rhaenys triangle is one of the best evidences for the sun with 2 moons idea. Everything about their lives fits into this, so yeah, I’ve been avoiding them. But you will dig it when we get there I am sure. 🙂


  30. Hey LmL, I think all of this work you’ve compiled is amazing. GRRM hates dealing in character absolutes and I find he uses mythology to give us those clear “heroes and villains” and then we see aspects of those characters and stories in our more complex real characters to give them that flavor without making them black and white.

    Wanted to call out the most recent TV show episode and the cave drawings. Primarily the use of the spiral, and “theta” and how they represent sun and moon. Picture here: https://static2.hypable.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/game-of-thrones-children-white-walker-symbols.jpg

    Curious about your thoughts on all of those cave drawings as primitive astrological symbols, as it seems to confirm the show is on track with astrology and the link to magic. Something I hope Sam’s time with the maesters will shed more light on.


  31. Hey! Love your essays, they are amazing and have definitely help with the long wait for TWOW. I wanted to ask you what your thoughts were about the premiere ep of GoT for season 7. Specifically, about the scenes with Sam when he was in the library. Not sure if you noticed, but one of those scenes had Sam looking into the gated off area, where a book lay open atop of a desk/podium, and what i thought was in those open pages of the book were space related stuff; what could have been moon/comet related pics.

    Basically, i wanted to say that once i started reading your essays about the cause of the long night, i was totally pocking up what you were putting down. This scene, if i saw the book right, definitely felt like immediate validation to what you were theorizing and i got super pumped (cant even imagine what you must feel, if you agree). Do you thnk the maesters are hip to what is really going on with the comet? is it possible they know how the long night occurred or have been at least looking into it?

    with how dope the premiere was, along with all the speculation George might be done soon, seeing this scene after reading all your stuff got me all aboard the HYPE train.

    Liked by 1 person

    • I need yo go back and look closet, I didn’t catch what you are talking about. It’s a good question about what the maesters know; remember that in the books, the original maesters are said to have hung out with the children of the forest, who definitely know what happened.

      Although I think chances are.good that the comet will return in the books and give us more meteors, I don’t expect the show to do that. Would be too expensive I think. But who knows, maybe they will. I’ll go tale a look at the scene you are talking about.


      • Oh thats a good point about the children of the forest and maesters hanging out. Perhaps they shed some light on that comet.

        As for the show, yeah that does seem like an expensive scene. But when the long night comes again, maybe theyll at least use dialogue to bring up the destined return of the comet. Either way, check it out. to me its at least the start of validation of your theory, which is awesome.


      • They could do something along the lines of one giant meteor hitting The Wall. You know, simplified version what we’ll get from GRRM.

        Well, since Season 5 I really hope that Arm of Dorne incident happens again, with Sunspear getting obliterated.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Same here.. Actually thought the episode was kind of meh and ‘off’ but that one shot that lingered on the open book sent me on a two hour rant to my aunt about your theories:) I imagined you seeing it and having a grin a mile wide. Illuminati comet confirmed!

      Liked by 2 people

        • Yes, and it struck me how the maesters and the weirwoodnet serve similar functions.

          The people who really seem to remember the cataclysm are the R’hllorists, with that scene where bonero points at the moon and makes a fist and then makes his hand explode in fire while promising doom and darkness… that sounds like a history lesson right there.

          Liked by 1 person

  32. So, when I first started listening to your podcast a couple months ago I was dubious about all the connections and threads you had teased out of the text to frame your ideas. Now though, after having read the books again more closely and re-listened to the episodes, I find myself more and more in awe of GRRM’s work. I agree, he does seem to be flat out mythmaking.

    I love your podcast, if you can’t tell and look forward to every new episode. Thanks for all your hard work.

    Liked by 2 people

    • Thanks for saying so Laura, it means a lot! As I always say, it’s okay if I don’t get everything right, the more important thing is just to get people looking at and talking about the symbolism and folklore in A Song of Ice and Fire. But yeah, I think those Moon meteors are a thing!

      Liked by 1 person

  33. Hello,I read your new stuff named “lucifermeanslightbringer | The Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire” on a regular basis.Your writing style is witty, keep up the good work! And you can look our website about proxy list.


  34. Lastly, I figured I should actually ask questions regarding Asoiaf:

    What happened to the Bloodstone Emperor? I can find no mention of what lead to his end, which makes me question if his life ever ended, given his possible status as AA & his diverse background into the darker magics.

    Have you found any mention of hints at immortality anywhere? Even a reference within the texts regarding the practices in Asshai?

    Yeen has been accepted by some to just be an easter egg from Martin, where not everything can be explained. I disagree with this and feel a structure of that magnitude, of that level of emanating evil & with that much black oily stone is not worth passing by. How do you feel Yeen has a part to play in all of this?


  35. Also wanted to add for quick reference a good summary of the truth behind the Full Metal Alchemist Fable. Episode 35 – The Shape of our Country. (Probably my favorite episode.) There the Hero ‘connects the dots’ of historical events to draw out the horrific truth of the matter; their country was initially created for the sole purpose of human sacrifice.


    Liked by 1 person

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